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Subject: Extreme argumentation
[someone] wrote: I [Sune:] Waldorf education is born out of the European cultural context.[someone] Yes Sune, thanks for pointing out that Waldorf is Eurocentric.I did not point out that WE is Eurocentric. Waldorf education to a great extent is born out of the European cultural tradition (which also is a simplified description of it). So is a great part of American culture. But both also contain, absorb and develop non-European cultural elements, US via people of all cultures, Waldorf education via containing and making elements of all the main classical cultures part of the curriculum, as part of making the pupils aware of themselves primarily as members of humanity, not their own nation or race. I [Sune] The picture of 'Gnomes' is part of that tradition.[someone] Yes, this 'picture' is one that helps children in Waldorf develop the 'elixir of life', (philosopher's stone.) ...It is used in helping teaching the children elementary mathematics (http://www.pythabacus.com/waldorf/abacusintro.htm http://www.pythabacus.com/instrframe1.htm). Most people probably don't consider mathematics to be 'the elixir of life' ... I [Sune] The picture of the struggle between good and evil in European culture takes one form in the struggle between Michael and the Dragon[someone] Anthroposophy is a dualistic religion. ...As Tarjei has pointed out, anthroposophy as a spiritual philosophy and research project is based on monism, not dualism (http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA004/POSA/posac10.php3). I [Sune] It is important in catholicism[someone] Yes, another religion with many of the same roots as Anthroposophy. Strange how the Pope spoke against Anthroposophy in the early part of this century since they have so much in common.As usual, your argumentation is quite onesided and misleading. The picture of the struggle between man and a Dragon of one form or another is part of many cultural traditions; in Greek culture it is found in one form as the picture of Hercules killing the hydra (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/conker/archive/mythical-beasts.htm), it is found in Babylonean mythology as the picture of Marduk killing Tiamat (http://www.inanna.com/fantasies/marduktiamat.html), in Nordic mythology it is found in the picture of Sigfried killing Fafner (http://gened.emc.maricopa.edu/academics/.../siegfried.html http://www.pnc.com.au/~marlan/wagner/siegfried.htm) Today, it is found as the central theme of the movie to be released later this year (at Christmas; Fellowship of the Ring http://www.lordoftheringsmovie.com), the first volume of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, one of the most read works of the 20th century (http://onering.virbius.com/booklist/hobbit.shtml). In the form of St. George [Patron Saint of Armorers, Cavalry (mounted warriors), and Soldiers] and his struggle with the Dragon, it is the leading picture of the scouts of the world (http://www.pinetreeweb.com/stgeorge.htm) The best known story of St. George says the Dragon lived in a lake near Silena in Libya (http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg05.htm) To view and describe the story of a hero, in WE Michael as one of them, slaying the Dragon as typically anthroposophical maybe is somewhat exaggerated. [someone] ... the spiral of reincarnation,I [Sune] 'spiral of reincarnation'?[someone] You know Sune, the Advent Spiral of evergreens and candles and apples and wax animals and crystals. When children sing about coming from a star and walk into the Earth womb (center of spiral) and back out again! I never witnessed this Anthroposophical ritual at our school but after hearing about this ritual from critics I asked my daughter if she had ever walked this. She said yes and I asked her to write down the experience ...You did not know she had done it before specifically asking her? It is part of the tradition every year at probably most Waldorf schools and now described on a number of pages on the net. http://www.teleport.com/~pdxws/calendar%20events/festivals.html: 'Advent spiral:http://www.camelliawaldorf.org/Structural_Pages/.../advent.htm: 'The Advent Spiral, like the winter festivals of many cultures, is about finding light in the darkness. Families enter a room decorated with evergreens and lit with a single candle in the center.It also has started to become integrated both in specifically Christian as well as not specifically Christian contexts in US in celebrating midwinter time. See http://www.allsaints-peterborough.org/adult.html It is also described and recommended by someone at the site of the Unitarian Universalist Association (http://www.uua.org/re/reach/families/christmas96.html) as a Christmastide Ritual, recommended to send it to REACH by her collegues at a retreat for the Mountain Desert District of LREDA. She also writes: 'I have also done this at the UUF - Sonoma County with the entire congregation, and found it to be a wonderfully bonding experience for everyone. Both of these churches have liked it so much it has become a church tradition.'http://www.paintcreek.org/re/calendar.htm tells is was part of the program for the Paint Creek Unitarian Universalist Congregation last year. At http://www.paintcreek.org/.../what_we_believe.htm they describe what they believe in: 'Unitarian Universalists emphasize the search for spiritual meaning, rather than teaching a particular creed. We encourage our members to be open, thoughtful, and tolerant of others' beliefs. There is no 'test' where members affirm their belief in a particular God.None of them probably think of it and agree with your interpretation of the Advent spiral as a 'reincarnation spiral'. [someone] she learned magic models like, "sylph, salamander, gnomes and undines"I [Sune] They are part of the European fairy tradition.[someone] Yes, occultists believe these are 'elemental beings'. This is a magic model. Here's a quote from one of my magic ritual books ...The picture of nature spirits are told by people of all cultures of the world up to the present. As you do, calling them all 'occultists' probably - as mostly in what you write on this list - to most people stands out as quite misleading and far off. [someone] and "lion, eagle, bull, man," the latter being part of the Anthroposophical 2nd Apocalyptic Seal.
The Apocalyptical Seals are not an anthroposophical invention. They are found in the Apocalypse of St John as part of the Jewish-Christian tradition. St. John's Revelation (4:1-8), describes a Bull, Eagle, Lion and Man as surrounding the throne in heaven. Three of the animals are from the Old Testament Prophet Ezekiel's vision of the wheel of fire.[someone] You act as if I don't know this. The point is it is in the Waldorf curriculum.The Jewish-Christian tradition is one of cultural traditions for which WE tries to mediate an understanding. What's your point? It shouldn't? I [Sune] Getting to know and understand the symbolism of the large religious traditions of the world is one part of the curriculum in WE.[someone] Rubbish. The Waldorf curriculum is about getting to know Anthroposophy.Rubbish. If that was the case and it was as strange as you try to make it stand out, it probably would show up in the pupils after school becoming engaged in specifically anthroposophical activities. To my understanding, the proportion of the pupils after school engaging in work based on anthroposophy, like waldorf education, is not significantly larger than the proportion of parents at Waldorf school doing it, showing the schools don't visibly change the inclination of the pupils into becoming more specifically anthroposophical than the culture at home as the decisive factor in forming the basic world view of the pupils. [someone] continuing: Glad you admit that children are spoon fed symbols, one symbol that crops up in lesson books is the one found in Steiner's Rosicrucian Temple on his South Altar (Capesius). Circles going out and coming back in to a small solid circle.I [Sune] The picture of 'The microcosmic man' was part of the Platonic humanist Renaissance tradition in many forms.[someone] Magic, magic, magic!I [Sune] Understanding the humanist tradition of the Renaissance is one central part of Waldorf Education.[someone] Ha ha ha ha ha! Rubbish! Understanding occultism is more like it.I [Sune] What you describe as 'anthroposophy' in Waldorf education is basic European cultural elements. Describing them as 'anthroposophy' has the same validity as your description of being 'white' as being synomous with being a 'racist'.[someone] You mean the western magic tradition which is only accepted today by occultists (which Anthroposophists are).Your overinterpretations and -statements on this list are legion. [someone] You show your ignorance when you regurgitate my feelings about white skin and racism in a frantic attempt to discredit me. This is something they teach to pupils at University in America, it's not a way out idea to people who study racism. This is something they teach to pupils at University in America, it's not a way out idea to people who study racism.I simply pointed out that racism not in any necessary way is bound to being white and part of the power structure of US, showing the extreme one-sidedness of your argumentation, in general on this list based on very close to "all-or-nothing thinking". Racism possibly is just as widespread among people being
non-white and not part of the power structure in US as well as among other
non-white cultures, like Japan. http://www.geocities.com/japanfaq/FAQ-Primer.html
http://users.rcn.com/alana.interport/hodge.html gives some pictures of the situation in Trinidad & Tobago. http://afgen.com/dialogues.html depicts the wounded situation between parts of the Black and the Jewish community. They all show the limited validity of your argument on the issue. I [Sune] Somewhat to the point, but probably as much off the point.[someone] Right to the heart of the matter old chap, right on the nose, straight to the point.You think I'm that old ...? ;-)) Your arguments are arguments on the nose, maybe. But the nose isn't the whole body and when looked at somewhat, they reveal the extreme onesidedness of your argumentation, far beyond both the heart and point of the matters you comment on. Regards, Sune Nordwall
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